Linkin Park - Minutes to Midnight

Okay, I know what you're all thinking but hear me out.

Linkin Park's latest offering, while nothing particularly new music-wise, is a breath of fresh air from the US-based nu-metal outfit.

Signing up esteemed producer Rick Rubin, the band came to the very sensible realisation that nu-metal, in particular the hip-hop side of it, was outdated and old.

With this in mind, they focused a little more on the music - and came out sounding much better.

Gone are the rap vocals in most songs and the teenage angst that appealed to so many of their young fans.

The opening instrumental piece Wake has two meanings - the wake at a funeral, ie the death of their old sound, and wake as in 'Wake Up - it's time to evolve.'

And Linkin Park have appeared to jump on the political bandwagon - but only a little bit. One song, Hands Held High, talks of the frustration US citizens feel at being represented by our old mate George W: "for a leader so nervous in an obvious way/stuttering and mumbling for nightly news to replay/and the rest of the world watching at the end of the day/in their living room laughing like/'What did he say?'"

The final track, The Little Things Give You Away is a moving account of the travesty that was Hurricane Katrina: "All you've ever wanted/was someone to truly look up to you/and six feet underwater/I do."

Surprisingly, Linkin Park manage to pull the political statements off without sounding trite or cheesy.

The rest of the album, though short, is an interesting medley of different sounds and genres. I like this album. However it took me several listens to get into, several more than it would normally take me to get into an album anyway.

With that in mind, despite the fact that listening to it now I would rate it as four stars, the time it took me to actually enjoy it takes away from that.

Three stars.

You're right - it really HAS been a long time....

So I turn my phone on when I get up this morning, and lo and behold, I have received a message from an ex-girlfriend of mine called Jenna.
Jenna I went out eight - count 'em, eight - years ago when I was the tender age of 16.
We went out for just over six months, so at the time i thought it was a fairly important relationship but six months is nothing these days.
Here's what it said:

"Hey david its jenna ******** how are u? wow its been so long since i've heard from u, wats new? where u working etc? we should catch up some time!"

How exactly do you reply to a message like that? You know, apart from "no." I was thinking something along the lines of "Get fucked, you dumped me for no reason when I was a young naive teenager and then I forgot about you for eight years and now all of a sudden you want to "catch up"???
Any suggestions?

Sorry mate, but you know what you can do with THAT lawsuit...

It is with great relief that I hear of news in the US that a judge's outrageously frivolous $54 million court case against a mum and dad drycleaning business has been thrown out.
Read the full story here.
It's good to know common sense still has a place in the American judicial system.

Actually, you spell it "Exhibit"...

Further to my previous post about US rapper Xzibit's stoush with Rove (pick on someone your own size) and the awful grammar he uses on his blog, it appears he has deleted the offending entry off his blog. He has replaced it with an entry about how "whack" it is that the whole thing has made the news.
There were 170 comments posted on his blog in response to this. 170!! And after browsing through some of them, it was good to see my fellow Australian citizens criticising him for his abuse of the English language. But it was this entry, from some idiot called Millsy, who appears to be one of his fans, that pretty much summed the whole thing up for me:

X fuck the press and the haters!
to all yall that be dissin u know ur roles so shut the fuck all!
Do wat u do best x and prove these fuckers wrong!
tear adelaides head off on saturday!
im hangin for a bit of paparazzi bro!
peace


I'm sorry, but you're 'hanging' for a bit of paparazzi?? WTF is that supposed to mean?? You are a class A knob, a waste of space and now, a grammar terrorist.

Burn down Paris

This is an actual headline on what is supposedly Australia's premier online news site, news.com.au --

Paris Hilton freed from jail, gets hair done

NOT NEWS, PEOPLE!!
'Nuff said.

PS Do you think the French ever get upset about the fact that such a tramp bears the name of their capital city? 'Cause if she was called Canberra, I'd be ashamed.

Real Estate Agents are fools

An actual phone conversation I just had.

Me: Weekend Courier, this is David.
Agent: Hi, is Michele there?
M: No, sorry, she's away from her desk at the moment. Can I take a message?
A: No, that's okay, I just wanted to see if she got the write-up on the property in Araluen Street. Do you know if she did?
M: Um, no, sorry, I don't.
A: Okay well it's *unintelligible* from the Professionals, can you get her to call me?
M: Sorry, who?
A: *exasperated sigh* Liz. Just ask her to call me. I'll re-send it through to her now anyway.
M: Okay. So no need for a message?
A: No, that's fine. Thanks. *hangs up*

Fuck you!! I have better things to do than start to take messages from you only to be told that it wasn't necessary in the first place!! grr

Grammar Terrorist

I had previously posted a comment on Lindsay's blog saying we should give a bit of leeway to artists and their names when it comes to examples of grammar terrorism. US rapper Xzibit was the case in point. However on hearing this news, I have decided to add Xzibit's name to the list.
The dude apparently walked from a scheduled Rove Live performance (who can blame him for that, really?) alleging racism by the show's producers.

But it was his blog entry about the saga that raised my ire.
In posting a message to fans, he wrote that the "sh*t was wack" and that he "went out the front door hopped in my sh*t and rolled out..."

I'm sorry Mr Xzibit, but hopping in your "shit"?? Think about that one. Come back to me when you figure out how to communicate in English.

PS Okay, just had a sneak peek at said blog by Xzibit and am now content that I was fully justified in naming him as a grammar terrorist. If you want to see some of the illiterate comments he made please check it out. Lindsay, you may want to be sitting down when you read it. It's not pretty. Oh, and I love the way that Xzibit stands up to racism but has no problem making tasteless homophobic comments on his blog. Word.

I love the Japanese people...

From news.com.au

June 25, 2007 12:00am
Article from: Reuters

THE ultimate couch potato's dream could soon be a reality, with the development of a TV that changes channels when you think about it.

Japanese electronics giant Hitachi is working on a "brain-machine interface" that analyses slight changes in the brain's blood flow and translates brain motion into electric signals.

The technology was on display last week at Hitachi's Advanced Research Laboratory in Hatoyama, just outside Tokyo.

It was linked to a train set, which reporters were able to make stop and go simply by thinking about it.

Scientists said the technology could have huge implications for medical research, but Hitachi's scientists are more interested in using it to develop a TV remote controller that lets users switch channels by thought.

Reality television and those nasty hooks

Every now and then, I get sucked in by reality television.
Despite my protests about Big Brother and the tripe that is released under the guise of reality tv, every now and then I see something and it moves me. (It also shits me that I get suckered in to feeling emotive about reality tv, but i'm only human.)
You would have all heard about this Britain's Got Talent show and the singing feats of six-year-old Connie and Paul Potts, the mobile phone salesman-cum unbelievably gifted opera singer.
If you haven't seen the clips yet, do a search on YouTube and check it out. It's breathtaking.

Trial by media

The recent coverage of the shooting in inner-city Melbourne has left me perplexed.
I understand the predicament media outlets and police face - they're pretty sure they know who's responsible, and they need to get his name and face out there so he can turn himself in.
That's a public safety issue.
But since he has been arrested, although News.com.au and certain commercial television stations are now blocking his face out, they're still using his full name in news reports.
Where's the justice?
I know this guy is facing some serious charges, but whatever happened to the concept of innocent until proven guilty?
This guy has been tried and convicted in the public eye already, and despite the fact that it appears to be an open and shut case, all this media attention will probably only serve one purpose - to strengthen his legal avenues for appeal.

The two Kevins

The latest blow-up between the CFMEU and Kevin Rudd is another example of everything that is wrong with the union movement in today's society.
Don't get me wrong - I myself am a union member and strongly advocate union representation in the workplace - but there are ways of going about it that don't damage the reputation of unions in general and the Labor Party.
Joe McDonald must be held to account for his actions, and Kevin Reynolds' attack on Kevin Rudd serves only one purpose - damaging the greater good (toppling John Howard) for which both organisations are aiming.
The CFMEU needs to pull its head in.
It needs to understand that unions no longer rule the workplace, but can have a positive, pro-active influence if they play their cards right.
If Kevin Reynolds and Joe McDonald can't adapt to a changing workplace climate, they will push swinging voters away from Labor and risk returning Jophn Howard to power - then they're really fucked.

Grammar Terrorism

As a public relations specialist who puts out press releases, it is your job to ensure the press releases are free from obvious grammatical errors. After all, the release is basically publicising whatever cause you are spruiking, and it looks bad for your client if you can't get your apostrophes in the right place.
And so it is with no hesitation that I add PR representative Kate McLennan to the list. Kate - if you are reeling off statistics about macular degeneration (which is certainly a worthwhile cause) you can NOT write: "78 per cent of Australian's claim to have never had their macula checked."
Where is the "Australian's" ownership in that sentence? That's right, there is none. Once is an accidental mistake and can be forgiven. Twice in the same release - unacceptable. On the list you go. Thanks Lindsay for tipping me off about that one.

With thanks to Cimba7200...

I did what you told me...
I sent those emails to 10 people like you said.
I'm still waiting for that miracle to happen.

Heroes

Thanks to Kate, I watched the rest of the season of Heroes on the weekend before it has fully aired here. And may I say - it rocked!
I am sooo excited for next season - that's all.
Email me if you want spoilers. Hehe.

Grammar Terrorists

I saw two examples of Grammar Terrorism this morning from sources that should have known better.

My first example was a television commercial for the upcoming The Cure concert here in Perth. The final screen shot for the ad proclaimed, in big words: "An Night with The Cure." For that, the promoter, Michael Coppel, will be added to the list.

The second is featured below - in the third panel, note the author's spelling of the word competitive. Disgraceful. As far as I can determine, the cartoonist's name is Tak - so on the list he goes.

I did something about it

I was so pissed off by the West's coverage of the adoption issue that I did something I don't normally do - I wrote a letter -- and it got published!
You can find it in the top left hand corner of the Letters section of today's (Monday's) paper.
The letters coverage of this issue in The West has been disturbingly one-sided (strangely enough, as one-sided as the West's editorial) and so it is a bit of a relief to see my letter printed.

Tianenman Square

All is not lost

I heard two news-related items that gave me just a little bit of hope since finishing work last night.
Firstly, I saw an amazing bit of footage on ABC News last night regarding the conflict between Fatah and Hamas in the Palestinian territories.
As you (should) already know, the situation there has basically decended into civil war.
Despite a ceasefire between the two factions being declared on, like, Wednesday, the two have broken out into open warfare.
The Palestinian President has sacked the entire Government and declared a State of emergency as the two groups struggle for power.
So a massive crowd of unarmed Palestinians took to the streets, sick of the violence and killings.
This footage showed these protesters, but the amazing thing was there were bullets flying all around them as they marched.
And then I saw something that reminded me of the Tiananmen Square protesters.
A lone, middle-aged Palestinian man, unarmed, saw a militant firing at something on the side of the street near where they were marching.

This guy, showing no fear, ran up to the man, pushed his gun away and started shoving him and telling him off - much like a father would tell off a son - to stop firing.
The gunman, who appeared shocked, didn't know what to do. He seemed to think about shooting the man himself but in the end just ran away.

The second thing was on the radio this morning.
The grandmother of the baby who was adopted this week by a gay couple spoke to Geoff Htuchinson on his ABC Mornings show.
She was legally bound not to reveal her identity, but said she was so horrified by the bigotry shown by talkback callers yesterday that she had to speak out.
I didn't hear the whole segment, but she said that the birth father of the baby - and his family - wanted "nothing to do with the child." Furthermore, she said as a grandmother, she couldn't have hoped for a more loving environment for her grandchild.

These two items gave me a tiny glimmering of hope.
If one person - be it a Palestinian civilian fed up with constant violence, or a Perth grandmother fed up with constant bigotry - can stand up to bullies, militants and bigots.... Well I guess it means that all is not lost. And that gives me hope.

It may be old news, but...

From the BBC, Thursday February 10 2005

Woman jailed for testicle attack

A woman who ripped off her ex-boyfriend's testicle with her bare hands has been sent to prison.
Amanda Monti, 24, flew into a rage when Geoffrey Jones, 37, rejected her advances at the end of a house party, Liverpool Crown Court heard.
She pulled off his left testicle and tried to swallow it, before spitting it out. A friend handed it back to Mr Jones saying: "That's yours."
Monti admitted wounding and was jailed for two-and-a-half years.

'Pulled hard'

Sentencing Monti, Judge Charles James said it was "a very serious injury" and that Monti was not acting in self defence.
The court heard that Mr Jones had ended his long-term but "open relationship" with Monti towards the end of May last year.
The pair remained on good terms and on 30 May she picked him up from a party in Crosby and went back for drinks with friends at Mr Jones's house.
An argument ensued and Mr Jones said there was a struggle between them.
In his statement, Mr Jones said she grabbed his genitals and "pulled hard".

"I am in no way a violent person " - Amanda Monti

He added: "That caused my underpants to come off and I found I was completely naked and in excruciating pain."
The court heard that a friend saw Monti put Mr Jones's testicle into her mouth and try to swallow it.
She choked and spat it back into her hand before the friend grabbed it and gave it back to Mr Jones. Doctors were unable to re-attach the organ.
In a letter to the court, Monti said she was sorry for what she had done.
She said: "It was never my intention to cause harm to Geoff and the fact that I have caused him injury will live with me forever. I am in no way a violent person."
The letter added: "I have challenged myself to explain what has happened but still I just cannot remember. This has caused much anguish to me and will do for the rest of my life."

At the risk of harping on about it....

I would like to join Dan, Lindsay and Kate's disgust at the West Australian's editorial today. I can't believe, in this day and age, we are still having this debate.

It cuts to the core of what we supposedly value in our society. Fairness and equality for all... unless you're gay.

I think Rod Swift from Gay and Lesbian Equality WA put it best when he said: "What is harmful to these children is the environment created by religious conservatives."

I tried to find a link to the story on The West's online site, but interestingly their front page story from today's newspaper, and the editorial that goes with it, have both been left out of the news articles on their website. hmm...

Open letter to the service station attendant I met this morning...

Dear Attendant,
I understand you have a difficult job.
It must be tough standing behind that counter all day and putting up with shit people.
I commend your working in an independent petrol station and have no problem with your attitude or manner.
In fact I found you to be quite polite.
But if I come into the store and tell you that, for whatever reason, Pump Number 4 is not working, believe me - it's not working.
I know your job description doesn't leave much room for lateral or critical thinking, but asking me if I'd tried actually taking the pump out of its holder - that's just offensive.
Why on earth would you think I would stand there, look at the pump and decide it's not working without trying to use it???
I'm driving a car, so although I may not know the intricacies of how the how petrol system works, it is safe to assume I have put petrol in my car once or twice before.
I know your job is most likely extremely mind-numbing but please, don't assume I'm dumb.
I'm not the one working in a petrol station.
Yours Sincerely,
Johnsy

When all else fails...

I'm still getting over this little gem I found in the "In Brief" section of today's West....

SCI-FI BRAINS TACKLE AL-QAIDA
The West Australian, Wednesday June 13, 2007

Anti-terror chiefs in the US have hired a team of the country's most original sci-fi authors to dream up techniques to help them combat al-Qaida.
Ideas so far include mobile phones with chemical weapon detectors and brain scanners fitted to airport sniffer dogs so that security staff can read their minds.
The writers also have linked scientists with Hollywood special effects experts to work on better facial recognition software to detect terrorists at airports.


As far as I can tell, this is not a joke. I'm flabbergasted.

The wise words of Scott Adams...

Getting the message yet, Mr Pope?

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21888582-401,00.html

Ha-Ha!

What weekend?

I must have had a good weekend, because I had the distinct feeling as I dragged myself to work this morning that I hadn't in fact had a weekend at all and am now on my sixth straight day at work.
Shudder.
But I made it, and that's the important thing. Now excuse me while I go and search for a hole in the ground in which to hide.

People Watching

This is the first time I've blogged on a weekend, drunk, so despite the warnings of some of my colleagues, I thought I'd give it a go.

I had drinks at the Belgian Beer Cafe for my birthday this afternoon, and had an absolute ball.
What I love most about birthdays/parties etc is watching people from different friends groups interact and get along.
It's always curious to watch, and sometimes surprising when people from different friend groups get along so well.
I guess it shouldn't be particularly surprising - I mean, despite what 'friend groups' various people come from, they still have the same thing in common.
But it's always funny to watch.
hehe

The French Connection

I try not to blog on the ever-skanky 'socialite' that is Paris Hilton - I mean, we've all heard it before and any publicity really is good publicity for her...
But I was outraged this morning.
I don't give a shit if she's in jail, out of jail, sick, healthy, dying or immortal -- so HOW ON EARTH does her release from jail become the LEAD STORY on morning news programs in WA???
I was absolutely ashamed to see certain breakfast TV shows lead with this story in their news bulletin and THEN follow that story with stories about Federal Politics and the train crash in Victoria.
Channel 7 and 9 news directors - shame, shame, shame on you!

Grammar Terrorism 3

Big Brother drop-out Brodie seen here chatting about life post-BB.
What a friggin tool.
'Nuff said.

I am SO excited....

Okay, I think I should preface this entry with a little bit of an intro.
We've all got our musical "skeletons in the closet."
Often, people are loathe to admit that they may, in fact, have a liking for a band that is, well, embarrassing.
For me, my musical skeleton, the one tucked away behind all that "I listen to Triple J therefore I am musically educated" arrogance is -- heavy metal.
Now - don't get me wrong - I am no Cannibal Corpse fan - I do like my metal to actually have singing in it and be musically deep, but yes, sadly, shamefully, there is a tiny bit of bogan buried deep inside me.
So it is with this prelude that I announce the subject of my excitement - metal supergroup Hellyeah are coming to Perth!!!!
Featuring members of Mudvayne, Pantera and some band I haven't heard of before called Nothingface, this group will be playing at Freo Metros on July 3.

I realise I will have alienated most of my readers with this entry, so to those of you not interested I apologise.

Now excuse me while I go and change my pants. And yes, I am that excited.

PS I thank you, dear reader, to not tell anyone about this. My professional and musical credibility must remain intact. I'm sure you understand.

Quote of the day

"WHAT really alarms me about President Bush's "war on terrorism" is the grammar. How do you wage war on an abstract noun? It's rather like bombing murder."
-Terry Jones
Read the full article here.

The Red Paintings - Feed the Wolf

This EP landed on my desk at work yesterday.

Reading the press release, I discovered that this little Brisbane band was chosen to tour internationally with the Dresden Dolls.

The release is the second in a trilogy of releases for the band and tells the story of the world as we know it being taken over by robots and eventually reclaimed by the animal kingdom.

The opening title track sets the scene with wolf howls underpinning the piercing distortion of guitars in a Muse-esque "end of the world" scenario.

The second track is a brilliant cover of the genius Dresden Dolls track Sing, with We Belong In The Sea and Mercy Seat conveying a mournful world to which humans have laid waste.
Granted, this is not a new theme but it is done particularly well by The Red Paintings.

Violins and cellos add a remarkable level of depth to the vocals and guitar work, and the lyrics are top notch.

We Belong in the Sea is a stand out track, with lines such as: "Everything's changing, I can't believe I'm losing myself/The world we rent falls to bits, the sea shows up to prove we're in hell."

In all, a brilliant release by an independent young Australian band making a name for themselves and doing a good job of it. Definitely a band to watch out for.

Four stars.

In news today....

Listening to this story on the radio this morning, I started feeling quite bemused at the whole situation - I love it when big baddies get busted and think they are above the law, only to get caught in a foreign country....
However my bemusement quickly turned to disbelief when I heard Mokbel's lawyer arguing that "He has a three-month old daughter and he's very distressed not to be with her."

Well excuse me, Fat Tony, but perhaps you should have thought about the whole "I'm on the run from the Federal Police" before you decided to have a baby!!!
The baby's only three months old, which means it was conceived during the time Mokbel was on the run.

This strengthens some of my work colleagues' arguments that some people should have a licence - or at least have to pass some sort of IQ test - before they have children.
Tony Mokbel, you can NOT use your baby daughter as an excuse to stay out of jail.
YOU got yourself into this situation, YOU fled from Australia while on trial for drug trafficking and YOU shall bear sole responsibility when your daughter grows up without a father because of your criminal activities and complete irresponsibility in fathering a child while on the run from Federal authorities!!

I may have mentioned this before, but

Tonight, the best show ever created, Heroes is on TV. Channel 7, 8.30pm. If you haven't watched it so far you can pick it up - it's just about a bunch of people with superpowers trying to save the world.
Watch it. I implore you.
And I don't want to hear any complaints about House or Chaser's War on Everything. Yes, they are also brilliant shows but sacrifices must be made in the name of good television.
You have been warned.

Grammar Terrorists 2

Okay, this is a bit of a cheap shot considering it was sent in by a contributor - who, for all accounts and purposes is just a mum or dad sending in the results for the children's soccer teams - but some of the spelling mistakes in this were bad enough to move me to action.
The following has been unedited by me. Note the double 'm' in coming, the brilliant way the writer spells 'penalty shootout' and the lack of space between "verygood" and "Bayswaterand". Also note how long the first sentence is.
You have been warned. If you're put off by the great big dirty block of text that it is - well think about the person who has to edit it for the newspaper....



Warnbro Soccer Club finished their weekend on a hight note with three teams going through to the third round of the cup on Saturday starting with Jake Heathcotes team winning by 1 goal against and Alan Walters 16s winning 9 - 0 against Swan I C and the Senior team wining by a penelty shotout to make Warnbro 6 and Morley 5 this was a very exciting game and a great win for the seniors. On Sunday Warnbro also had some good results starting with the 6s Dave Richards team travelling to Cockburn and comming away with a 6 - 2 win both seven teams had good games with D Peterson,M Clear, and A Dyuric scoring a goal each against Rocking to make it 3 - 3 the other 7s team beat Kwinana 6 - 2 with M banks scoring a hatrick I Mihalsevic and E De Pontes also scoring for Warnbro. The under 8s who played Mandurah had a very good game and both teams drew the score 4 all the under 9s c team had their first win with a 3 - 2 win over Port Kennedythe under 11s c team played at home to Kalamunda and drew 2 all and the a team under 12s wining 3 - 2 against Kalamunda also the 12s c team had a very good win away to Canning this week with the u13 s a team wining 3 - 2 against Wanneroo with Dylan Philips scoring both the goals and the 13c team winning by 13 goals against Port Kennedy onto the 14 a verygood win this week with a score of 8 - 1 against Bayswaterand once again a superb game for the 16s who won their game 4 - 2 against Subiaco the 19 came away with a draw this week against Whitfords.

I know this is no laughing matter but....

The sub-editors at News.com.au really should have picked this one up, even if it was a quote:

Iraqi police shoot female suicide bomber
From correspondents in Baghdad, Iraq
June 05, 2007 05:28pm
Article from: Agence France-Presse

IRAQI police opened fire on a female suicide bomber as she approached a Baghdad recruitment centre today, blowing up her explosives belt.

"A woman wearing a suicide belt tried to blow herself near a national police recruitment centre near Sadr al-Qanat," interior ministry operations director Brigadier General Abdel Karim Khalaf said.

She tried to blow herself??? No wonder they shot her...

Stranger things

I had a strange encounter on the weekend.

I was going to post this as a hypothetical but thought people would see right through it.


Six years ago I was asked to take part in the Sir Charles Court Young Leaders Program - what was essentially a three day camp involving 30 gifted Year 10 students from around the state.

As a uni student I was asked to volunteer my time as a peer tutor, meaning I supervised a group of six of the students as they went through the course.

It was quite obvious from day one that one of those students had a crush on me - she made no attempt to hide it - and although I thought she was cute, she was 15, I was 18, I had a girlfriend and so legally and morally it was a non issue.


So anyway, six years on, I'm at a concert with my current girlfriend who sees a friend of hers - that's right, this girl turned out to be quite good friends with my girlfriend. When she saw me at first she knew she recognised me but wasn't sure where from.

When I told her, she was speechless. She honestly couldn't talk to me, she was so embarrassed that she had actually seen me again all those years on in a social situation.

We all had a laugh about it and the incident was mostly forgotten.

Then, in a similar social situation, we saw her again on the weekend.
She was still a bit funny about talking to me, but was markedly better.
We had a bit of a chat and my girlfriend commented how "funny" it was seeing the two of us interact.

Which made me thinking about the cliched topic of unrequited love.
We've all had people in the past that we have "liked" or "had a crush on" but, for some reason or another, never actually got together with. I remember a girl I worked with in my first job at Dewsons, who always seemed to be single when I had a girlfriend and vice versa.

I guess the question is, can 'unrequited love' ever be fulfilled?
I guess if it's meant to, it will (see the brilliant but welp-ish romantic comedy Serendipity) but I just wonder if stuff like this happens to everyone.
Will things like this always pop up throughout people's lives, whether they're single, married or with children? And what do you do about it?
Or, is it called unrequited love for that very reason - that although at some time the two of you may have hit it off, the stars of the universe have so aligned that the time will never be right for those two people?